blowing out spark. Discussion on ignition

[thursday]

so here is the setup:

9.4:1 c/r built y7 with a 14b currently at 15~16 psi of boost

now i was running autolite 5224's gapped to .035" in it (stock heat range plug equivalent to a 5 ngk-wise) it was running alright but would still seem to blow out when i upped the boost to 16-17 lbs.

I just purchased a set of ngk bkr7e's and gapped them to .030", now the spark blow out is horrible, starting around 4k rpms and 12ish lbs of boost the car likes to pop and what not, falling on its face at full throttle.

Is it the design of the v power plug? I'm pretty sure i shouldn't be having that big of issues gapping them at .030" I do have a generic set of spark plug wires, they are new, but should i upgrade? My cap is in good condition and my rotor is new... i'm just wondering why i'm having such big issues with properly chosen and gapped plugs.

Evosol i know you can chime something in, any ideas?

[TurboNuts]

You haft to have an msd box or similar..I had the same problem with my twin turbo stang turned up the boost and had to gap the plugs down to .025..A msd box is a must or you will blow out the spark!!

[Kolat]

Do you have a stereo in the car? if you don't care about possible signal noise drop the r in the plug, maybe gap to .028 or so, and probably even worth indexing the plugs, I know I had to index them on my old red car.

T

[KryptoSol]

I always just use the gap that comes with the bkr7, all the way up to 27psi, and no probs. I would suggest try gapping them down to .028-.025. and see if that helps. Also make sure the rest of your ignition sytem is freshened up if you havn't already.

let us know how it goes.

[thursday]

i think i'll try lowering the gap another .005" and seeing if i can find some better plug wires first.

[96gsx]

I'm with Krypto, .35 is just to big.. .28 vote here

[thursday]

i was at .030" in fact upon further inspection only one was at .030" and the rest were .027", so they are all now .027" and i ordered a set of ngk plug wires and a new cap

thanks for the replies guys

[KryptoSol]

yeah, the NGK #6097 already come pregapped for boosted aplications, i think they originally go into MR2 turbos and Saabs. I thought maybe you opened up the gap to .035".

Just a heads up, If you have a napa close to you, they carry a great set of lifetime warranty OEM replacement wires. I take mine back for replacement once a year. They are something like $49.

I'm all about Napa lifetime warranty items. haha....

napa axles are the shit!

[thursday]

damn i already ordered the ngks, oh well maybe on the next motor. Thanks evosol, i just noticed something, our cars are the same color :)

[KryptoSol]

The paint on my car has been neglected. I only wash it once in a while. :)

[thursday]

O.K.

so

I think i found the root of my problems and hope to fix it tomorrow. I don't have the ground from my valve cover to my engine bay, and i think that this is a main ground for spark plugs... Milan was commenting about engine grounds when he would always get shocked while getting out too.

what do you guys think? Let you know if it works tomorrow

[KryptoSol]

hmmm... you can try but i doubt thats it. The main grounds are on the harness, one goes to the thermostat housing and the other goes to a frame rail.

Its a good idea to have that valve cover grounded too though.

[thursday]

well i know the main one on the harness (thermostat) grounds the main relay, and there is another on the tranny that goes to the body, but i would think that the one on the head would be a main ground for the spark plugs, as the head is isolated between gaskets (intake, exhaust and headgasket, although some are metal)

This is a glimmer of hope at the very least as i purchased a new spark plug cap and it didnt help, i have a new rotor and i'm getting ngk wires tomorrow.

We'll see i'll keep you guys posted. This thing will be running 16 psi for saturday.

[KryptoSol]

The only other thing i can suggest if the new wires and rotor don't work, keep gapping the spark plugs smaller. Try .025" and .020" and report back.

On my first turbo setup, i ran a t3 60trim, and for some reason it liked really small plug gaps. I always gapped it at .018"-.020".

[ntrcptr90]

BTW your cylinder head is not isolated from the rest of the engine block you have head bolts. Just buy an ignition box and quit trying to band-aid it.

[KryptoSol]

I don't have any first hand experience, but ive heard that typically, after market ignition boxes don't agree with Honda ignition systems.

Usually, most Honda guys run 400-500whp on stock HOnda ignition without much problem.

I'm not sure what Russell ran on his SOHC, but i havn't had any probs with OEM ignition so far.

[GetawayInMoscow]

I guess you better tell Full-Race Geoff that his 795 hp Civic with stock ignition needs and ignition box.

Joe got the ground on and it's fixed we think

[ntrcptr90]

Just because some internet hero has done something doesn't mean you will.**So guys have put down 1000hp on cast pistons, doesn't mean that you should try it and its going to be reliable.**Check your coil, it could be getting weak.**Lemme know what happens.

[KryptoSol]

yeah, its possible the ECM or coil is crapping out.

[thursday]

the ground fixed it.


honda put it there for a reason, and i believe it was to *help* ground the plugs.


it is not a band-aid, my setup is far from being full of band-aids and i have taken my time in the whole thing. An ignition box is absurd, read up on honda turbo setups and you'll realize that msd is highly overrated and their attempt to tack on junk like rev limits and ignition control and upping the price of the product is not attractive to people that can manipulate the OEM system properly.

[TurboNuts]

Let me tell you from experiance i have grabbed a (stock)honda plug wire while running and its NOT even close to a msd box(yet from experiance) Its called a multiple spark discharge!!! Wow are all honda KIDS the same?? People are trying to give you a hand here remember??
If that little ground wire to the 10mm bolt on the valve cover fixed your problem then maybe just MAYBE you have a ground problem?? i have built several turbo honda's that didnt have that ground wire on them and they boosted/ran just fine......

[BlackMagic]

Wow are all honda KIDS the same?? People are trying to give you a hand here remember??


Yep, pretty much

[KryptoSol]

Let me tell you from experiance i have grabbed a (stock)honda plug wire while running and its NOT even close to a msd box(yet from experiance)


Is this what you do at the shop at all hours of the night? :P

I havn't tried this yet, but i'll take your word for it. lol...

You gonna be at the track sir?

[TurboNuts]

Is this what you do at the shop at all hours of the night? :P

No not normally!! LOL i am out repoing all the little boyee's honda's who's moms wont make thier car payments...But i will make you this offer come on by with your honda and a half rack of beer and we can see who can hold a plug wire the longest between your honda and my stang with MSD?? Sound like fun? LMAO!!
I know you dont fall into the norm of the honda mentality so dont get your panties in a knot!!

[KryptoSol]

haha, yeah Chris, i got this mental picture of you running around like that one bounty hunter, DOG. LoL....

Dude, i would take you up on that offer but its might take me more than a half rack of beer to hang on to your Mustang's plug wire. Let me sleep on it ok? haha...

[ntrcptr90]

If you give chris some long hair and a leather vest he just might pull off the "Dog".

[KryptoSol]

If you give chris some long hair and a leather vest he just might pull off the "Dog".


haha...

Chris you might have to drop a little off the gut if you want to fit in a leather vest. LoL...

[TurboNuts]

Nope that gut costed me alot of $$$ many many moons of training!! Its all good i dont need the leathers in spokane most are just all talk..when they are hooked they all change the attitude..lol

[KryptoSol]

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Jan-16-Mon-2006/photos/5bounty.jpg

[thursday]

well now that this thread is useless because some douche comes in talkign about msd boxes working better than 80's american technology it is pointless to post in here.

I'm not the standard "honda boy" i've been building import engines with my dad since i was a freshman in high school and i've seen my share of them. Hell if you see my car you can tell that it isn't store bought bolt ons, its a homemade turbo setup. Your msd ignition pitch is absolutely absurd for my particular setup, i'm not thinking i can make 500 whp on stock ignition because i'm not planning on making 500 horsepower, I know that my car can utilize the stock honda ignition for my particular horsepower goal so i'm not wasting money on an aftermarket ignition.

oh,
and the ground DID fix the problem, so i'm not going to take it off and say it isn't needed.

Thanks for the replies

[KryptoSol]

Well, no offense Joe, but in defense to ntrcprt90, who may or may not be familiar with Hondas, was just throwing out some ideas. I think he had good intentions to help. :)

as far as Turbonuts, i'm not defending him till he grows out his hair and starts sporting a leather vest. :P

[ntrcptr90]

I still think you have other issues going on but since you've been building engines since you were a freshmen, apparently you have much more driveability experience and diagnostic experience then everyone else.**So why did you come in here asking for advice again????
BTW i can be a dick, its from dealing with people over the years that think they everything and don't. None of us do.

[GetawayInMoscow]

Literally, ntrcptr90, 99% of turbo Hondas out there that are making 300, 400, 500, 600, etc. horsepower are using the stock ignition, it's just not something you ever really need to upgrade.

IMO telling someone to get an MSD unit because his car is blowing out spark is a band aid fix.

[gregc]

IMO telling someone to get an MSD unit because his car is blowing out spark is a band aid fix.


Haha... that sounds about as funny as a guy calling an intercooler a bandaid fix for too much boost.

"Well shit man, if you just control that boost with a boost controller that dials a little lower, you wouldn't need that intercooler bandaid!"

[KryptoSol]

honestly, i think all race cars are a big ole bandaid. That would probably include most street driven cars too. haha...

I'll be the first to say my car is 1.6liters of Johnson&Johnson bandaid. I'm just waiting for the bandaids to unravel.

Whats the point? This thread is not getting anywhere! lol...

[thursday]

apologies for my angry posts, sometimes i get a little hot headed.

ntrcprt90, there may still be some flaws in my system and i will continue my endeavor into the ignition system. If i end up upgrading you'll be the first to know :)

[KryptoSol]

you know whats cool about DOG? He apprehends the bad guys without using lethal weapons. I hear he also preffers MSD boxes over honda ignition.

Try swapping out your ignitor and see if that helps Joe.

[thursday]

will do, thanks for bringing the igniter thing up btw.