Alky injection: CHECK!

[KryptoSol]

Well after much research i narrowed it down to Alkycontrol and Devil's Own Alky injection units.

The Alkycontrol unit looks to be very complete and is designed specificly for the application after consulting with the builder. The kit comes with steal braided lines and the works and is about $500-550.

I chose the Devil's Own unit because of the flexibility of the "progressive universal kit," and its very attractive price, $289! (alky container is extra) I also felt that the heavy duty nylon/plastic hose was good enough for what i was trying to acomplish. I don't plan on running %100 methanol, although if i was i would probably go with steal braided lines being that methanol is highly flamable and has no flame color.

I decided to mount it in the trunk.
http://i6.tinypic.com/1zqsv9j.jpg

The progressive controler is fully digital, another reason why i chose this kit, and its a no-brainer to set up. Its also super small compared to others progressive controlers.
http://i6.tinypic.com/1zqsytd.jpg

the nozzle is mounted in a semi stealth fashion on the underside of the charge pipe.
http://i2.tinypic.com/1zqt1tw.jpg

So far ive done a realatively conservative street tune, bumping up ignition 2 degrees in certaint areas, and leaning out the alky cells to about 12-12.5:1 @ 18psi.

I'm very happy with the set up and 'seat of the pants' power increase.

I'm scheduled to dyno tomorow @ 2pm so i'll keep you all posted as to what it puts down.


I might even go out to the track this friday just to play around even though LSD isn't in yet. we'll see.

[96gsx]

Very cool.??I'm really looking forward my new h20/alky injection system.??I had my pump fail during installation, waited 3 weeks, got the replacment, it too broke upon installation & I just got my new 150psi shurflo pump with quick release fitting this morning.??

Post up them #'s! ?

You did a boost leak-down after taping the injector right?

[KryptoSol]

No, i havn't done a full on leak down test of the charge pipes but i took extra precautions when putting it on. I used hard plasticy washers on each side. Boost seems to be holding steady so far, but i'll keep an eye on it.

Thats weird, two pumps in a row going bad?

[96gsx]

talntid has a video of the first pump failer.??Second pump, the plastic thread cracked down the side.??More importanly.??Get them #'s up!??Good luck!

[Mr. Hoy]

This should be interesting to see what kind of numbers the lil' Del Slo can put down. I am positive he will put down solid numbers the car shits and gets. I'm going as well and hopefully get a baseline run. Bikirom arrived the other day but I havn't had time to sit down and desolder the factory daughterboard and replace with the bikiboard yet. After that I'll get the 555's in and turn up the boost and get it tuned.

[96gsx]

pimp'n

Where them #'s.. 8:33pm no #'s. "tapping watch"

[97GSX]

Hmmmm..........still waiting.....

[Mr. Hoy]

Well after our trip to the dyno Kryptosol managed a measley 323 peak whp at 17 psi, but was maxing out the injectors and running lean up top. Actually the best all around tune was the street tune he drove in on in which he laid down 314 whp and 249 lb/ft of torque with very nice air fuel ratios. I didn't get my car on the rollers because I had to leave to go get money from the bank since I bought another car so my numbers will have to wait:(

[KryptoSol]

sorry for the wait, we had to do a couple rounds of brew to end the day... night... whatever... yeah... i'm beat.

[Mr. Hoy]

sorry for the wait, we had to do a couple rounds of brew to end the day... night... whatever... yeah... i'm beat.




haha yea nothing better than a few nice cold beers and "bubble gum" tasting SoCo shots to celebrate breaking the 300whp mark with a SOHC as well as taking your mind off the smoking problem!!

[KryptoSol]

yeah i don't know what the deal is... I'm gonna go rape it tomorrow morning when i wake up see what happens.

If its toast then i'll have to order up another set up $125 pistons... and i'll even put your name on one of them. heheh...

[96gsx]

got your self a little blow by?

[KryptoSol]

must be... The motor sure didn't look too happy when i ran out of injector, it got pretty lean but i think the alky might have saved it... it seems to be driving fine and it will puff a small amount of black smoke occasionally.

[96gsx]

black smoke is irregular AFR's. It's the blue/white smoke you should worry about.

[KryptoSol]

black smoke is irregular AFR's.??It's the blue/white smoke you should worry about.


yeah... Thats why i havn't been too concerned. Oh but if you would have seen the blue smoke after the dyno run... that was a bit concerning. I really wasn't expecting it to make that much HP so i didn't even think about the injectors.

[98spydert]

I missed this thread somehow. That controller is awesome, I think I'm going to order one. I was going to convert mine to 2 stage but progressive would be so much more efficient, especially when I switch to direct port.

Any idea how many lbs/min you're pushing through there?

[98spydert]

Bah, it varies voltage to the pump. :( I was hoping it used some sort of injector or high speed solinoid. Aquamist it is.

[96gsx]

You're not using Dsmlink's single stage nitrous system as your controler? ??

[KryptoSol]

Bah, it varies voltage to the pump. :(??I was hoping it used some sort of injector or high speed solinoid.??Aquamist it is.


That seems to be the industry standard for alky kits that are using Sureflo pumps. Aquamist is too much for my pocket book.

[98spydert]

You're not using Dsmlink's single stage nitrous system as your controler?


Nope, I was going to use that when converting to 2-stage. I'll have a small nozzle activate at x rpm and the main activate at the set psi.

[98spydert]

Bah, it varies voltage to the pump. :( I was hoping it used some sort of injector or high speed solinoid. Aquamist it is.


That seems to be the industry standard for alky kits that are using Sureflo pumps. Aquamist is too much for my pocket book.


I think it's more of the cheap alternative to doing it right, therefore more popular than most other methods. Aquamist, while expensive as shit, is superior to all other forms of H20/meth injection with their HSV set up.

[KryptoSol]

Aquamist is nice but does alky injection really have to be that complicated? I like to follow the K.I.S.S. modo. I only use alky to suppliment my fuel system so my needs might be differ than others. Even on a little 2gph nozzle its been working wonders. I'm gonna start toying around with larger nozzles and more ignition and see what i can squeeze out of the little monster.

I actually read on several forums like turbobuick.com where many have said that the Aquamist just can't flow enough meth so they stick with one of the sureflo varients. Sure, Aquamist is the most cutting edge alky injection kit but as far as alky/water injection goes does it really matter? I'm not convinced.

[98spydert]

You're asking if precision fuel delivery needs to be complicated? KISS doesn't apply to modern MPFI vehicles in my opinion. Any fuel injection needs to be precise, whether it's gasoline injection or methonal injection. Anyone with a WB02 and tuning equipment that allows small changes to fuel delivery can see the differences in power output by fine tuning. That's what I've seen and experienced. Not trying to convince anyone, it doesn't matter to me what everyone else uses. :)

I can see the problem of not being able to provide enough fuel for high HP applications. From what I've seen on DSMLink, the direct port set up is good for way over 500whp which is my goal with the 2.4 block I have and a GT30R or similar.

[KryptoSol]

Actually fuel is not as complicated as all the "tuners" seem to mystify it as. Fudge it here, fudge it there. Its not rocket science. Actually i bet you could teach a monkey to tune fuel (not kidding). I don't know much, but i know that the gains from tuning fuel are minimal. I find ignition to be a little more exciting.

Sorry, i'm not starting a pissing contest... I'm just curious how everyone else is running their alky injection.

[98spydert]

Like I said, experience counts for a lot more than internet hear say. I love to hear the tools on the net that say run higher boost rather than a good AFR!!! Add fuel so you can run more PSI!!! Take out timing so you can run more boooooooost!!! The science has been proven again and again. And the prime ignition is application specific. More ignition does NOT mean more horsepower. There's a "sweet spot" but I'm sure you know that.

[KryptoSol]

So you mean to say that my FMU isn't sufficient fuel management? how dare you!

as for "experience" well... Ive got a life time subscription to SuperStreet Magazine!


But regardless ive seem to make an impression on some turbo'd Honda enthusiats in town. They call it "magic" i just call it flirting with 'Maximum Brake Torque Timming' (MBTT).

[rrussell]

My .02 worth.

I had a aquamist system on my Honda and it was a really nice design.

But I didn't use it that much. After EFI 101 I realized that water/alky injection systems are just another band aid. They do help with knock but do not produce huge gains in power.

They can help keeping a engine together if and only if your running to much timing advance for the fuel being used. Or a inadequate inter-cooler.

I would rather run the timing more conservative with a little more fuel to be used as thermal management.

It still amazes me how on the net people refer to A/F as this huge
"black magic" power maker or taker on EFI engines but when the reality its nothing more then a few points. Timing is the power maker or taker.

Now on carbs its a whole different story. They need to be jetted very close because of the signal at the intake will affect the droplets of fuel and if you go to rich the droplets will become to big and the combustion will suffer. This is why carbs react to the fuel distillation curves of the fuel more then EFI.

[96gsx]

I' m really not sure what to make of this. EFI is hard with 10 year old cars. I'm my situation after learning around DSMlink I realized just how inefficient things were running. Learning how to fix problems before making changes to the factory EFI is whats so hard about tuning. If you don't fix the small things that are almost impossible to find without trial and error, or a good knowledge of what to look for the "gremlins" will be very hard to isolate.

I agree with what you're saying, any monkey can tune fuel if the rest of the car is working right. It's just not that easy 80% of the time. The more you learn, the harder it becomes to get to that perpetual best tune because you're never satisfied. It's like an addiction that you can never fix.

On a lighter note, the h20 kit is finally 100% installed after 2 months. Feels good to accomplish something like that in what should have only taken 2 days of monkeying around. Thats a DSM for ya.

[KryptoSol]

96gsx, yeah its fun to sit there and hack away at a fuel map perfecting it little by little. Actually i have more fun dicking around with my car and seeing the results than racing it. Glad to hear you got the injection kit installed and working.


It still amazes me how on the net people refer to A/F as this huge
"black magic" power maker or taker on EFI engines but when the reality its nothing more then a few points. Timing is the power maker or taker.



alky injection is debatable, i see it as another toy to experiment with on my car. I guess you can say my car has lots of bandaids.hehe. I wouldn't have it any other way though...

Ive never actually taken EFI101 (one day hopefully) but i'm glad that my limited personal experiences have taught me something that parellels that of someone that has attended the EFI classes. Hey you know... one day when i graduate and get a real job i'm gonna build a fucking muscle car and toy with carbs, looks like fun!

[BlackMagic]

More ignition does NOT mean more horsepower.??There's a "sweet spot" but I'm sure you know that.


This is absolutely true...and is also the main reason why "seat of the pants" tuning for max power can be troublesome.??Increased timing will increase torque as RPMs increase to a certain point.??
At this point an increase in timing will not make any changes to the torque values...this is the threshold of destruction.??2-3 degrees of timing beyond this point and detonation can destroy your engine.??

[KryptoSol]

thats why you find where VE starts to deminish and start stepping in timming. You are quick to point out the potential problem of a 'seat of the pants tuner' but don't provide an answer for the rest of the kids, what gives?

I'm a noob to the car scene but im not completely retarded. lol...

[BlackMagic]

The only answer is tuning on a loading dyno.??Since we don't have one around here...I guess we are all stuck.??I street tuned my civic to 12.71 w/ 8psi...but I only had 16 degrees of total timing.??The car had alot more potential even at 8psi, but I dont like playing with fire.??

You can tune how ever you want.??Some people just get it...maybe you are one of them.??

Some people don't...they open shops in N. Idaho and melt pistons.

[98spydert]

After EFI 101 I realized that water/alky injection systems are just another band aid. They do help with knock but do not produce huge gains in power.



Not really a bandaid IMO. If you're substituting gasoline for 100% methonal injected in a direct port type set up, you're just running a fuel with more oxygen content and a much higher octain rating. Similar like filling your tank with "race gas." If you're just dumping a bunch of window washer fluid into your upper IC pipe with little tuning just so you can up the boost settings, yes, I agree; total bandaid.

[BlackMagic]

Agreed, but i think Russ was referring more to water injection which is simply a fix for high boost/shitty gas issues.

[KryptoSol]

Oh great, my whole set up is one big Cosco size bandaid. haah.... Actually they make some pretty tough bandaids now-a-days!

When working on my car i have a set of rules...
right below the KISS rule, I have the "80% satisfaction" rule. In a nutshell, it states that i will only tackle the "issue" up to 80% satisfaction then i move on to the next set of issues or problems to be fixed. In the classless level of competition that i compete in, throwing hundreds of dollars at a 2 dollar prob isn't worth the gains.

[98spydert]

I think we had this timing discussion before on the old board last year? Different people besides Special K but same argument.

Anyways, the water injection set up I've copied is a guy that lived near me in CA. He made 477AWHP on a mustang dyno on CA 91 oct with the set up I'm working towards. I just need to add the HSV, FIA2, and direct port nozzles... oh yeah and that GT35R he has :P

[96gsx]

If I ever win the lotto I'm buying an AWD dyno.

[KryptoSol]

well as soon as i get my quarterly lotto check, gt3076r more boost and 400whp target. Sure, russel already did the 400whp but i want to do it on the Vitara pistons. :P

only 75 more ponies, anyone think its possible?

[rrussell]

well as soon as i get my quarterly lotto check, gt3076r more boost and 400whp target. Sure, russel already did the 400whp but i want to do it on the Vitara pistons. :P

only 75 more ponies, anyone think its possible?


I think its possible! Sounds like you have a good handle on your tune so it shouldn't be a problem.

[KryptoSol]

rrussell,
I saw your old civic out at FNSR last night, i let my lil bro race him in my car.

[98spydert]

Which one was yours krypto? Only Sol I saw that looked to be more than mildly modded was a blue one? Was that it? I didn't watch for long though, I may have missed it

[rrussell]

rrussell,
I saw your old civic out at FNSR last night, i let my lil bro race him in my car.


How did that go. I'm sure your car won. He needs to get used to the car before he can turn up the boost.

[KryptoSol]

Which one was yours krypto? Only Sol I saw that looked to be more than mildly modded was a blue one? Was that it? I didn't watch for long though, I may have missed it


yeah mines the blue one.




rrussell,
I saw your old civic out at FNSR last night, i let my lil bro race him in my car.


How did that go. I'm sure your car won. He needs to get used to the car before he can turn up the boost.


Yeah, I think he might need some more practice, like myself...hehe...

OT: Highschool drags was DEAD! i was the only import, and maybe only like 20-25 cars total?

[rrussell]

[/quote]

How did that go. I'm sure your car won. He needs to get used to the car before he can turn up the boost.
[/quote]

Yeah, I think he might need some more practice, like myself...hehe...

OT: Highschool drags was DEAD! i was the only import, and maybe only like 20-25 cars total?
[/quote]

FWD are hard to drive. I had my share of problems also.;)

Now that I have a AWD its so much easier to launch and drive.

That sucks about the car count. I was trying to get out there but work wouldn't let me.:(

[98spydert]

There were two dark colored AWD 1st gens out there that were moving down the track pretty well. Are they members here? Anyone know what ET@mph they've laid down before?

[Mr. Hoy]

There were two dark colored AWD 1st gens out there that were moving down the track pretty well.??Are they members here???Anyone know what ET@mph they've laid down before?


There is a goldish colored 1G AWD that runs low 13/high 12 a purple 1G with the front bumper cut out he has the capabilities for low 12's/high 11's.