Need some serious turbo advice

[The Hog]

Ok

Ok turbo guys I really need to get pointed in the right direction here. After pricing out every possibly avenue to go with this Caddy I have finally decided to break down and try to go the turbo route. It is basically a physical imposibility to run a single turbo on this car without some heavy cutting that im just not willing to do. Thus im looking at going with a twin turbo setup with the turbos mounted down where the factory cats are which is about the only place they can fit anyway.

I'm not looking for insane power, the car is first and foremost a daily driver. I'm thinking with my 10.5:1 compression anything past 7-8psi is going to be a pretty big stretch. I'm looking for something in the neighborhood of 650HP at the flywheel plus or minus a bit but would like a little room to grow just in case I want to go crazy down the road.

For those that don't know the engine is a 5.7L LS6 with a 6-speed t56 transmission and a rather weak aluminum differential.

My biggest question is, what the hell turbos should I go with? Some kind of hybrid? a pair of GT28's? etc. I would definitly prefer a water cooled unit to help keep the temps down around my feet which is one reason I was leaning toward the GT series turbos.

I'd prefer to go with something that has internal wastegates for simplicity which will make the mounting and routing a whole lot easier.



The system will look a little like this
http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/ls1/ls2/gto_3_4_front.jpg

Anyway, I'd really appreciate some feedback from you haridryer guys :bigthumbs:

[twotons]

Is that the ATS kit from Australia? That is really cool. have you seen if STS makes a kit. they seem to work real good and alway make good power?

[KryptoSol]

STS was exactly what i was thinking as i was reading too, but then again, you sure you want to do that to a lux car?

why not put a bottle on it?

[thursday]

only turbo with two gt28's if money isn't much of a problem, thats for sure. Either way I would go with a non ball-bearing turbo, for one its cheaper and two it will spool alright on a v8 :)

[Kolat]

mounted that far from the engine the exhaust gas will have cooled a lot and so ball bearings would be ftmfw. Do the math and figure out how much airflow your gonna need and from there choose turbos.

T

[The Hog]

Yeah I have not really looked into the turbo "kits" too much other than that ATS kit. I'd really rather fab up my own system. I was looking at those little GT turbos, they seems like a pretty slick setup for what im looking to do. The biggest version of the GT25 seems like a pretty good fit.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT25/GT2560R_707160_10.htm

[KryptoSol]

what do people use for fuel mangement on those things?

I vote DIY kit!

I think the most expensive part on that ATS kit is that long ass hose that goes to the throttle body. lol...

[The Hog]

Most everyone uses the HP Tuners software on these newer GM cars, from what I hear its a pretty badass setup. That is where Brian and Marty come in for me :-)

[gregc]

Dean, we really need to get together sometime and chat. You need to see what I've been playing with. Should have HPTuners here in a few more days. :P

[96gsx]

DIY Garrett FTW! Thats going to be one cool project Dean..

[thursday]

homemadeturbo.com has a couple good v8 home made projects

[KryptoSol]

The Hog,
where you at the King Yen picking up food today?

[Supra98]

i would go STS remote mount, that way you have plenty of room and you wouldnt really need a intercooler... maybe a small side mount idk

[BOOGEYMAN]

Dean,

go to www.theturboforums.com Most likly All the info in there that will be looking for. Real cool people to answer some questions for ya.

Travis.

[The Hog]

The Hog,
where you at the King Yen picking up food today?


Yeah that was me, had to get my chow mein fix for lunch. :-)

Travis, yeah ive been lurking in the turbo forums for quite a bit just reading up on what the LS engine guys are doing these days.
Unfortunatly it seems most of those guys are running single turbo setups on camaros and GTO's. This damn caddy doesn't have shit for room under the hood to do that.... hence my twin turbo idea. But at least all of the tuning information im reading on there all still applies.

Those little GT turbos are kinda spendy but still less than half the price of that Magnuson kit and way more potential. :bigthumbs:

[KryptoSol]

ahh yeah...

i was just leaving as you where waiting for your to-go. I saw your car outside and figured it must be you. Its a nice looking car!

[The Hog]

Thanks, i've been super happy with the car as a daily driver but I just really want to do something a little different with it

[The Hog]

Ok so I have been doing my homework and basically.... i've gotta go a different route with the turbo's I think. None of the GT turbos are very efficient at the low boost level's i'd be running and they are pretty f'n pricy anyway.

Looking at it a bit deeper it seems a t3/t4 stage III turbine and 60-1 compressor would be a lot better route for me to go. The external gates add a few bucks but will allow me to shove the turbos a little higher in the tunnel. The 60-1 compressor is pretty damn efficient where I need it to be and would give me a heck of a lot more room to grow if I want to go crazy down the road (and lets face it thats a pretty good possiblity). Lastly They are only like $715 each and I don't have to plumb water to them.

[KryptoSol]

have you looked at the t3/t4E 50trim? I believe the efficiency islands cover a wider range. With the 60-1, are you thinking single or twins?

http://www.turbocharged.com/catalog/compmaps/Fig9.gif
http://www.turbocharged.com/catalog/compmaps/Fig13.gif

[The Hog]

I have to go with twins, its the only way to make things fit. Basically the turbos have to mount down where the cats are.

Looking at the to4E maps it looks like the 60 trim would be the best fit for me if im reading things right. I'm looking for around 3lbs/min (each) at 1.5bar.

[BOOGEYMAN]

Dean a 60-1 ia almost over kill for you in a twin set up.......Just a pair of gn turbos would do you nicly with room to grow!!! If you are set on the 60-1's I can get them for around $550 a piece shipped to your door.

Call me this weekend. If you need any help with the install or fab work I would love to help out with this project!

Travis.

[The Hog]

Yeah im thinking the 60-1's may be a bit on the overkill side as well. As I remember those compressor housings are physically larger by a little bit also? So I think we have it narrowed town to the t3/t4E (trim to be determined). I got under the car this weekend and i've got a truckload of room where I want to put them (and when I say "truckload" I mean they will barely fit but they will fit). If you have a hookup on new turbos, i'll definitly be giving you a ring man. The exhaust side is pretty damn easy to work with, the hardest part is goign to be mounting the air filters somewhere that is out of the hot air and mud.

I also need a hookup on a good place to pickup a dual bottom inlet, single top outlet intercooler kinda like that one in the picture but not so fuckin massive.

[trbo355]

Ya sure you cant fit a single anywhere? You can buy an S-400 turbo that supports 1000 hp and spools real nice on 5.7 liter motors for 565 bucks new. It sure cuts down on heat and complex piping and you only need one ext. wastegate too. And one air filter.

[The Hog]

Oh man I'd love to put a single turbo on it, i'd have one of those big ass ball bearring GT's on there so fast if I thought I could do it. Unfortunatly I own a v6 car someone thought would be a good idea to cram a v8 into. There is about the same room under my hood as there is on a BBC chevy Luv. The spark plugs are 2" from the strut towers alll the way down the side and the serpentine belt is 2" from the radiator fans. I'll post up some pics a little later today to show what a square peg in a round hole looks like lol.

[trbo355]

Oh man I'd love to put a single turbo on it, i'd have one of those big ass ball bearring GT's on there so fast if I thought I could do it.**Unfortunatly I own a v6 car someone thought would be a good idea to cram a v8 into.**There is about the same room under my hood as there is on a BBC chevy Luv.**The spark plugs are 2" from the strut towers alll the way down the side and the serpentine belt is 2" from the radiator fans.**I'll post up some pics a little later today to show what a square peg in a round hole looks like lol.
That reminds me of the commercial where the guy is installing a battery with a hammer and as a little kid he is cramming the round peg in the square hole with splinters flying everywhere.heh heh

[The Hog]

Ok here is why I'm not running a single turbo.....

Here is a pic of how much room there is from the engine to the radiator
http://a258.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/2/l_65e33fc35b0dfa62c0cde5bd22c629c9.jpg
Here is the passenger side
http://a268.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/10/l_3f7188a1e756da0b8221aad68d43b5d3.jpg

Monster room on the drivers side too
http://a209.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/25/l_a4adfc575abd661854ea4a8c2b857f20.jpg

Heres a view from the top (and a nice shot of some Boogeyman paint work)
http://a298.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/37/l_f6cc81ea3c2efe812a2ee0f09b60d4c1.jpg

Buuuut lookey down here...
http://a89.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/10/l_9e8c99fe3ab82254b1d90fcf38278698.jpg
http://a475.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/10/l_e0181133077ec5b34eb7961389e71a3a.jpg

[Greycobra_03]

If you mount the turbos that low, wont you have oil drainback issues? Might have to rig a pump to help with oil flow... also you go through a puddle and cold water splashes up on hot turbo... I dunno but sounds pretty bad to me.

[The Hog]

You just have to run a return oil pump like they do on the remote mount turbo setups. Chances are I won't be making any full throttle passes through mud puddles anytime soon. I'll have wrap around heat shields on the turbine housings to help keep my floorboard temps down so that should help a bit as well.

[BOOGEYMAN]

Dean did you talk to mike at all on the turbos yet?? I cant wait to get started on this project!!!

Travis.

[The Hog]

I emailed Mike last night but have not heard back from him yet. I did a little more digging on ebay and found a guy who has an ebay store that has them for $575 +$15 shipping for the 60 trims. $1150 for both turbo's... now we're talkin. Now I just need a screamin deal on a couple nice gates and we will be welding. I figure i'll pick up a spare set of downpipes so I don't have to hack up the stockers. That way im not out of commission while we fab the shit all up since im guessing it will take me a while to do it all.

[KryptoSol]

you might try camp1320, i got a decent deal from them on my turbo, typically 50,57,60 trim turbos are priced the same. I got mine for 535shipped.

818.335.5316

[The Hog]

Shit thats not bad at all, do they have a webpage?

[KryptoSol]

They do, camp1320.com i think? They are a long time Honda-tech.com sponsor http://honda-tech.com/zerothread/1607891

I don't think they do much business from their site, most of their business is done on the honda forum, honda-tech.com.

I know its a honda site but check it out, Camp1320 usually has pretty good prices on most turbo stuff, and since you are buying 2 turbos, i'm sure Tom would be able to work out an even better deal for you.

whats nice is they usually have everything in stock.

[The Hog]

Ahhh yes I know honda-tech well, ive got a lot of posts under my belt there. Just a different screen name :-)

[trbo355]

Ok iv'e been staring at your underhood pix for about a half hour now trying to come up with a game plan. Obviously like you figured, undercar is probably the most workable option. The ides of twins makes for an unholy amount of plumbing between the two so the next question is if you do a single, that makes the the turbo size larger yet to try and cram into one of the cat converter spots. If you sacrifice some ground clearance and run one exhaust primary under the trans behind the pan it still leaves you cramped for a merge to the turbo. Some EXTREMELY close radius pipes could be used to pull it off though. Maybe. Is there room for an intercooler up front? Where would the air cleaner piping route to for a good fresh air supply and out of water splash? Is it possible that the intercooler charge pipe can be routed under the engine crossmember? I know on the Hennesey Viper twin setups they actually went thru over the control arms with some custom shaped silicone hoses made right here in town by BelAir composites. You could get some funky hoses made using a wire pattern by them possibly. When you gonna bring your car and a half rack of beer out to the shop so i can put it on the hoist and get drunk and stare at it? LOL

[The Hog]

Hell im down to throw it on the rack anytime. You'd be surprised how easy (I think) the plumbing of the twins will be. Both the intake and discharge pipes can run through the wheelwell between the suspension and into the nose of the car. I'll have to hack holes in my plastic inner fenders to run the plumbing all the way up front but thats no biggie. Basically just run a 2.25" discharge pipe from the turbo to each side of the intercooler and also run the 3" intake pipes all the way up front to put the filters up there. Up front there is quite a bit of room for a nice air/air intercooler once I relocate the power steering cooler out of the way. The more I think about it i'll probably throw and oil cooler in the mix up there as well for good measure.

Lots of BS is going to be happening in the nose of that car hehe.

[GetawayInMoscow]

www.rogueusa.com

got my turbo from them, fast shipping, good customer service (not that i needed it just in terms of contact)

[KryptoSol]

Low and behold... the HoG is a HT lurker. :)

get R Done! i can't wait to see this thing turbo'd.

[The Hog]

LOL makes me feel like im coming out of the honda closet or something hahah. Ya I spent a year or so on there under Phase Change Racing, just replying to all of the nitrous questions and whatnot. Built half a dozen systems or so for some of the HT boys a year or two back.

[The Hog]

And the winner is....... Mikes Turbo Inc. $475 per turbo, $195 on the Tial gates, and $190 on the Tial BOV. Ordering the intercooler this week :-)

[Mr. Hoy]

And the winner is....... Mikes Turbo Inc.**$475 per turbo, $195 on the Tial gates, and $190 on the Tial BOV.**Ordering the intercooler this week :-)


Hey before you order up your intercooler, check this out:

http://www.extremeintercoolers.com

These are the guys I got my intercooler through. They have been building intercoolers for many years and make a very nice product. Call JR and he will get you squared away. They have been building alot of the custom kits for Horsepower Freaks in Portland for quite some time.

[The Hog]

Ah I didn't even see this last post and came in here to post up an update.

Intercooler and all the plumbing items are either here or on the way as of now. Hopefully i'll have it all by the weekend so I can start mounting some of my action up.

[The Hog]

http://a696.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/27/l_907bbd9e14660d2f0727ba856b195987.jpg

[rrussell]

http://a696.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/27/l_907bbd9e14660d2f0727ba856b195987.jpg


Nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KryptoSol]

whoa, nice grillz!

Are you gonna try to keep it stealthy or are you gonna keep it exposed?

[The Hog]

I'm going to tuck it behind the factory stainless lower grille on the thing, I don't think people will see it too much. Was thinking of shooting some flat black paint on it so it blends in a bit better since the turbos really won't be visible either.... should make it more fun :-)

[Trannyman]

Stealth yO

[SOMTA]

Any updates on this? :)