Gears :)

[Jetblack]

Hey Brian, the gears and kit arrived today. I'll drop the car off, Monday morning, if that works for you.

My feeble plan is to try to get used to the gears for a bit, then have you install the spray. I think I have everything I need.

Wideband O2, Brisk (one heat-range cooler) plugs, purge, bottle heater, window switch, ZEX kit.

Any other recommendations for anything you'd want me to have?

[twotons]

sounds good, and the list looks good as well, we will see you on monday.

[Jetblack]

Also, I don't care if you snap the heads off the flange bolts, on the drive shaft. I'll bring a new shaft and flange, since the old flange is not machined correctly and vibrates like heck, when I let off the throttle.

So Monday:

1. Gears
2. Drive shaft and flange

Probably mid February, nitrous. Yike.

[x NOODLES x]

What gears are ya doin? How big of a shot?

[Jetblack]

4.10s and a 100 shot. Trying to find MT E/T tires as well. Going for mid-high 11's.

[Jetblack]

Just got a message back from JEGS. They have 15's but they don't carry the Bogart racing wheels that fit over my brakes. Bogart does though.

JEGS has awesome customer service, IMHO, so far.

[SRT Brian]

Will that ford handel nitrous;) what brand window switch did u go with?

[Jetblack]

Dear Lord, let's hope so and it's a ZEX switch. half a million wires so it had better do all that it says it will.

Switch and button locations will be a chore, I think.

[Jetblack]

See? God knows I am installing a mod so it will snow, from now until the track opens.

[SRT Brian]

I know right!

[x NOODLES x]

Should be a runner!

How you gonna get 11's though? Andy w/ 3:73's and a 100 shot could only scratch numerous mid 12's? And that was on the OLD clocks.

[x NOODLES x]

Just got a message back from JEGS. They have 15's but they don't carry the Bogart racing wheels that fit over my brakes. Bogart does though.

JEGS has awesome customer service, IMHO, so far.

Some friends and I have been getting our M/T's from Steve at the Sprague 'Liberty Tire'. He's been able to match the internet prices. Which is pretty rare nowadays.

Also, are you gonna start trailering your car down there? I dont know if you know this, but Bogart DOES NOT reccommend driving their wheels on the street (one of the reasons I didnt get Bogarts), there's numerous accounts of the wheels breaking over ruts/pot holes. And we all know how Spokane roads are. Just an FYI.

[SRT Brian]

I went with American Racing wheels 17"s for my car. and I was going to go with the M/T but I had them on my Grand National and I did not like them at all. So Im going with the Hoosiers this year IF there is a track. How are you going to get Mid 11's when you were running 13.3 last year? the 100 shot will maybe get you 1 sec. if your lucky! and if you have traction. I would be happy for mid 12's to be honest. Im hopeing for 11.30 - 11.50

[Jetblack]

And I washed the car last night. Hence the snow.

I am only going by what others are reporting, for what I expect to run. 'Course these people may be fishermen. You can't always trust every word that comes out of their mouths. Drag racers may be even less reliable. One guy (allegedly) went 11.77 and another went 11.51. CAI/tune, 4.10 gears, shaft, LCAs and drag radials, with a 100 shot, is what the last guy had and that's identical to mine. Different brands on some stuff but same, in essence.

Man, I hope the wheels don't break from bumps. Spokane's roads are made of bumps, with the occasional flat spot thrown in accidentally, by the new guy, on the asphalt truck. If I get wheel hop, what happens?

I'll figure (AKA the drag racer's imaginary scenario) the math:

I average a 2.2 60', on street tires, but with DRs I am hoping for a 1.8X (maybe better) so I'll guesstimate that will take off 0.5 second ET.

0.3 seconds off the ET, for dropping from 3.55s to 4.10s

1 second for spray.

1.8 seconds for my "conservative guesstimate". 13.5-1.8= 11.7 Do I think I could shave another 0.2? With a 1.6 60'?

Trying to be very conservative, with my numbers and not expect a run anywhere below the 12s first time out. With DRs I'll try spraying in second/third/fourth, but not first and see how that goes.

I still think it's weird that MPH never seems to increase much. Guys on the forums report big decreases in ET with almost no increase in MPH. WTF? A big part of me will be disappointed if I go from 13.5sec to 11.5 sec but only increase from 105 to 111MPH.

If my math seems fishy or the combos don't work together the way I am thinking, let me know. I always sort of laugh at the guys with huge expectations, when they hit the track and run slower than they did before. I'd like to think I have the basic driver mod so can get my car down the track fast enough to get some light dust to come off the roof but I am not perfect at launching or pedaling, when needed. I just want the car to be able to do it's part if I can do mine.

[Jetblack]

Some friends and I have been getting our M/T's from Steve at the Sprague 'Liberty Tire'. He's been able to match the internet prices. Which is pretty rare nowadays.


How did you like the MTs? I hear varying reports, with every tire. I'd like to run on a prepped track and see what it's like to hook up!

[x NOODLES x]

If I get wheel hop, what happens?

I'll figure (AKA the drag racer's imaginary scenario) the math:

I average a 2.2 60', on street tires, but with DRs I am hoping for a 1.8X (maybe better) so I'll guesstimate that will take off 0.5 second ET.

0.3 seconds off the ET, for dropping from 3.55s to 4.10s

1 second for spray.

1.8 seconds for my "conservative guesstimate". 13.5-1.8= 11.7 Do I think I could shave another 0.2? With a 1.6 60'?

Trying to be very conservative, with my numbers and not expect a run anywhere below the 12s first time out. With DRs I'll try spraying in second/third/fourth, but not first and see how that goes.

I still think it's weird that MPH never seems to increase much. Guys on the forums report big decreases in ET with almost no increase in MPH. WTF? A big part of me will be disappointed if I go from 13.5sec to 11.5 sec but only increase from 105 to 111MPH.

If my math seems fishy or the combos don't work together the way I am thinking, let me know. I always sort of laugh at the guys with huge expectations, when they hit the track and run slower than they did before. I'd like to think I have the basic driver mod so can get my car down the track fast enough to get some light dust to come off the roof but I am not perfect at launching or pedaling, when needed. I just want the car to be able to do it's part if I can do mine.

You shouldnt have wheel hop at all, on a solid with DR's. If you do, we all know wheel hop can break stuff.

If I was you and I hit 11.xx anything I'd be stoked. You gotta remember WHERE these guys are running these times. Most DAs at SRP last year were in the 2500'+ range. Some of these east coast guys are running in NEGATIVE DAs sometimes. And as much as people dont realize it, location makes a serious bit of difference. But who knows, I hope you do hit mid 11's, thatd be SWEET!!

How did you like the MTs? I hear varying reports, with every tire. I'd like to run on a prepped track and see what it's like to hook up!

I have BFG DR's for my regular tires, and the M/T ET STREETS (Bias ply) for the track. And they do work well, but the Bias plys tend to 'sway' a little bit, and I still need ALOT of practice to really reach their FULL potential!

[Jetblack]

Yeah, when I was in Grand Junction, CO, for x-mas, the car hated it. It was like driving an RV. Slow b/c of no air.

[black69camaro]

Congrats on the new goodies, that should be alot of fun. Your math seems to play out pretty well I think, if you can get that 60' down, that seems to be an easy way to drop ET. Lightening up your unsprung weight is defenitely a good idea as well!! Keep us updated.

[twotons]

well Dave, how does it drive? wasnt to bad of install, i love the ford motorsports gears, they set up so easy. It felt way better then the 3.55 gears. have fun.

[Jetblack]

Definitely snappier! I tried to keep off the gas and it just killed me. There are all those places where the speed limit increases by 10MPH or so and I just had to accelerate "normally". Which is against my nature.

Oh, it sucked so bad!

This morning will be it's inaugural launch. Last night, I drove to Lisa's place and we went to that "Martial Drumming" thing at the Fox [unbelievably cool!]. Let the diff cool down, for about 2.5 hours, then drove it home, to Cd'A. I will call that "broken in".

Will have to learn all new shift points and how many gears I can grab on downshifts. I can tell it will make a huge and positive difference.

Thanks for installing this for me, Brian. You are the only person I trust to do this work!!!! I have not heard anyone say a single bad thing about you personally or your work professionally. That's the kind of reputation that has to be maintained every damn day and it takes a lot of work to do a professional job on every job.

As far as I can see, you always have so... thanks!

[Jetblack]

If I was you and I hit 11.xx anything I'd be stoked. You gotta remember WHERE these guys are running these times. Most DAs at SRP last year were in the 2500'+ range. Some of these east coast guys are running in NEGATIVE DAs sometimes. And as much as people dont realize it, location makes a serious bit of difference. But who knows, I hope you do hit mid 11's, thatd be SWEET!!

Wouldn't nitrous or boost negate the 2500' though?

And if I do hit 11.99 or better, I will be held down, only by my seat belt to keep me from jumping up and down, at the time shack. The shack-gals will be waving people around me, while I act like an ADD retard, off his meds, at the Chucky Cheese.

Then I'll stall the car and get the dose of humility that you can only get from doing that in front of girls. You can feel all your elation.... just.... drift away. There it goes. Say goodbye to your pride.

[black69camaro]

Then I'll stall the car and get the dose of humility that you can only get from doing that in front of girls. You can feel all your elation.... just.... drift away. There it goes. Say goodbye to your pride.

You hit the nail on the head with that one!!

[x NOODLES x]

Wouldn't nitrous or boost negate the 2500' though?


No. At least I dont see how.

It affects less, but by NO MEANS negates it.

[Jetblack]

No. At least I dont see how.

It affects less, but by NO MEANS negates it.

What I mean is, they put superchargers on the old WWII planes so they could get to higher altitudes, by making an "artificial atmosphere". I think the net effect of high altitude is not so much the decrease in pressure as the decrease in oxygen, available to burn the fuel the injectors are squirting into the cylinders.

Nitrous adds oxygen and boost just pumps in more air (with it's oxygen, obviously).

Wouldn't nitrous and boost be the big equalizers?

[Jetblack]

I almost forgot.

HO


LEEE



CRAP.

Gears make a [cough] bit of a difference. Car goes crazy, after 2500 RPM, in second. At the intersection, near my house, I started in second, revved to 2000 and popped the clutch. Freaking wow. It'll go sideways in second, until I stop. Still haven't had a chance to really get on it, because only the freeway was dry so no launching.

[BoostedAWD]

gears are everything lol you will notice a huge difference with the right set.I had a 79 el camino with a built up zz430 crate motor had about 500 hp i had 4:11s in it and it was an animal then i blew up the rear end and threw the stock 2:73s because its all i had and holy crap even with 500hp the car would barely burn out in 1st lol

[Ryfly05]

What I mean is, they put superchargers on the old WWII planes so they could get to higher altitudes, by making an "artificial atmosphere". I think the net effect of high altitude is not so much the decrease in pressure as the decrease in oxygen, available to burn the fuel the injectors are squirting into the cylinders.

Nitrous adds oxygen and boost just pumps in more air (with it's oxygen, obviously).

Wouldn't nitrous and boost be the big equalizers?

No matter how you put it, if you use the same amount of nitrous/boost at sea level and at 3000', you will always make more power and run better times at sea level. Of course, you could always increase the boost or run a bigger shot to make up for the alt. difference.

Congrats on the new gears. I know on my old GTP going from stock 2.93's to 3.29's didnt make much of a difference. I was kinda disappointed. Go figure. :confused:

[x NOODLES x]

No matter how you put it, if you use the same amount of nitrous/boost at sea level and at 3000', you will always make more power and run better times at sea level. Of course, you could always increase the boost or run a bigger shot to make up for the alt. difference.


This. :D

[ntrcptr90]

In my opinion u guys are slightly wrong. With a supercharger or nitrous u are right. With a turbo to some degree it will compensate, 10 psi at sea level is still 10 psi at 2500' with a turbo because the wastegate will just stay closed a little longer and the turbo will just spin a little faster. This is with all other factors being equal. The only thing I could see being a variable is compressor efficiancy on the map. A supercharger might make 10psi at sea level and 8.5 at 2500'. The pulley determines that. Maybe Russ or Reid will chime in.

[x NOODLES x]

Different is different. Theres no 'by the book' formula for it, but as stated, A car (boosted or not) at 0' is gonna run faster than the same car at 5000'.

[black69camaro]

Different is different. Theres no 'by the book' formula for it, but as stated, A car (boosted or not) at 0' is gonna run faster than the same car at 5000'.

end of story.

[ntrcptr90]

Explain why it would then, because i don't side with you. On a supercharged, nitrous or NA car i agree but not so much on a turbo car with all other factors from humidity, temp, etc. At least have something as evidence to base your opinion on.

[x NOODLES x]

Does a turbo car in spokane have a 'butt dyno' feel of pulling harder in the winter or the summer?

The winter, obviously. Because the DA is lower because it can grab more USEFUL air. Thats my theory anyway. :D

[x NOODLES x]

With a turbo to some degree it will compensate,

On a supercharged, nitrous or NA car i agree but not so much on a turbo car with all other factors from humidity, temp, etc.

Your 'terminology' has an undevoted quality to it. Yes?

Prove how it doesn't (AT ALL) effect a turbo??

I'm willing to learn. :D

[black69camaro]

I am definetly not taking sides either, but I dont see how a turbo or any other "artificial" air -condensed or pressurized- can over come altitude or bad air. With Superchargers, turbochargers or nitrous you are only adding to what you already have correct? Lets keep this a two way street, not a one sided discussion!!

Wait a minute, how about starting a new thread, and not destroying jetblacks!!

[ntrcptr90]

Does a turbo car in spokane have a 'butt dyno' feel of pulling harder in the winter or the summer?

The winter, obviously. Because the DA is lower because it can grab more USEFUL air. Thats my theory anyway. :D
I am saying with temperature and humidity being the same(i've stated this). A supercharged car's boost is regulated off of restriction and how fast(pulley size) the supercharger is spun. A Turbo's boost is regulated off of the wastegate and the spring psi in that wastegate. A Wastegate doesn't care if its sea level or 5000'. It will compensate with the staying closed longer and having the turbo spin faster in order to make 10psi at sea level or 5000'. As long as the outside air temp is the same as well as humidity then i don't think the turbo car will slow down much if any. In fact i wonder if you have too big of a turbo where the efficiency is almost in the surge range that by going higher in altitude if you might run faster even(doubt it).

[ntrcptr90]

I am definetly not taking sides either, but I dont see how a turbo or any other "artificial" air -condensed or pressurized- can over come altitude or bad air. With Superchargers, turbochargers or nitrous you are only adding to what you already have correct? Lets keep this a two way street, not a one sided discussion!!

Wait a minute, how about starting a new thread, and not destroying jetblacks!!
I haven't kept this a one-sided discussion if that's directed at me. I am throwing my opinion into and trying to show some theory behind it. I agree that we should move this to a new thread if one of the mods would do that. I just hate people giving possible wrong information and then they tell people and it keeps spreading. Got to love the internet. Like i said maybe Reid or Russ can come in and give an opinion. I agree that NA, Nitrous, and supercharged cars will always run significantly harder at a lower elevation, but not always significantly with a turbo car. Too many variables come into play. I am talking only about air density(elevation).

[x NOODLES x]

I am saying with temperature and humidity being the same(i've stated this). A supercharged car's boost is regulated off of restriction and how fast(pulley size) the supercharger is spun. A Turbo's boost is regulated off of the wastegate and the spring psi in that wastegate. A Wastegate doesn't care if its sea level or 5000'. It will compensate with the staying closed longer and having the turbo spin faster in order to make 10psi at sea level or 5000'. As long as the outside air temp is the same as well as humidity then i don't think the turbo car will slow down much if any. In fact i wonder if you have too big of a turbo where the efficiency is almost in the surge range that by going higher in altitude if you might run faster even(doubt it).

Sure, I can agree with that. However air density IS different at different levels of elevation.

There is no possible way (that I know of) to get the same air density at a different elevation with the outside air temp and humidity being the same. Its just not possible.

Here's 2 examples I tried to make with EXACTLY the same weather, just at different elevations.

#1 @ 5000'

DA Calculator - Density Altitude Calculator - DragTimes.com (http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-altitude-calculator.php?elevation=5000&temperature=80&altset=30&rh=75&submitButtonName=Calculate+DA)

#2 @ 500'

DA Calculator - Density Altitude Calculator - DragTimes.com (http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-altitude-calculator.php?elevation=500&temperature=80&altset=30&rh=75&submitButtonName=Calculate+DA)

Lemme know what you think......

[x NOODLES x]

A Wastegate doesn't care if its sea level or 5000'. It will compensate with the staying closed longer and having the turbo spin faster in order to make 10psi at sea level or 5000'.

Fine. It'll make 10PSI, but it WILL STAY CLOSED LONGER, thus ADDING time to said 1/4 mile.

No one said Boost levels were different at different levels. I said TIMES are slower at higher levels than at lower.

I just hate people giving possible wrong information and then they tell people and it keeps spreading. Got to love the internet.

I dont give wrong information.

I've seen and studied literally THOUSANDS of 1/4mile times at differing levels of performance. And this is one fact I would bet my life on. :D

[Ryfly05]

Fine.
No one said Boost levels were different at different levels. I said TIMES are slower at higher levels than at lower.


Boost does change with elevation with a supercharger, assuming same pulley size. You will lose boost in higher elevations because the s/c is still spinning the same speed, but its not getting as dense of air to pack in.

I agree that a turbo will make up for the difference in alt (as far as boost) by keeping the wastegate closed longer. So I guess the question with turbos is if 10 psi at 5000' is the same as 10 psi at 0'?

[ntrcptr90]

Sure, I can agree with that. However air density IS different at different levels of elevation.

There is no possible way (that I know of) to get the same air density at a different elevation with the outside air temp and humidity being the same. Its just not possible.

Here's 2 examples I tried to make with EXACTLY the same weather, just at different elevations.

#1 @ 5000'

DA Calculator - Density Altitude Calculator - DragTimes.com (http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-altitude-calculator.php?elevation=5000&temperature=80&altset=30&rh=75&submitButtonName=Calculate+DA)

#2 @ 500'

DA Calculator - Density Altitude Calculator - DragTimes.com (http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-altitude-calculator.php?elevation=500&temperature=80&altset=30&rh=75&submitButtonName=Calculate+DA)

Lemme know what you think......

Apperently you don't understand what i've been saying all along, apples and oranges. I think Ryfly actually understands at least. This off-topic discussion started from elevation only. I am talking ONLY ABOUT AIR DENSITY which is directly related to elevation. Yes, i know that when you bring air temp, humidity, barometric pressure into the equation it will adjust to a "corrected elevation". I don't dispute that, i am just trying to say, and have been that all 4 combinations don't react the same. NA, nitrous, and blower all react somewhat similar, the turbo car doesn't. I never said i am completely right, hence getting reid who has more of a physics background in here.

[x NOODLES x]

I understand what your saying.

I'm trying to show you it doesnt matter, because the air being taken in is different, what the turbo does after that doesnt pertain to my point. May it react 'less' to changes, sure. But IT STILL REACTS. Thus giving slower times.

How bout this.

A turbo at 5000' doesnt have a magic wand to wave and suddenly make the air denser does it?

[ntrcptr90]

It can make the air denser by compressing it. The density of air at sea level is .075 lb/ft cubed at 70 degrees F. By compressing it to 10 psi it jumps to .126 lb/ft cubed at the same 70 degrees. So it almost doubles the density of the air(magic wand), if i am reading this correctly. Yes i know air heats up when its compressed but thats what intercoolers are for. I can't find an equation directly related to what we are talking about. So the uniform opinion is that Turbos probably slow down slightly depending only on elevation with everything else being equal just not the as much as a NA, blower or nitrous car, right? Man i sure wish reid or russ would take a stab at this to clear it up or make it cloudier, haha.

[x NOODLES x]

It can make the air denser by compressing it. The density of air at sea level is .075 lb/ft cubed at 70 degrees F. By compressing it to 10 psi it jumps to .126 lb/ft cubed at the same 70 degrees. So it almost doubles the density of the air(magic wand), if i am reading this correctly. Yes i know air heats up when its compressed but thats what intercoolers are for. I can't find an equation directly related to what we are talking about. So the uniform opinion is that Turbos probably slow down slightly depending only on elevation with everything else being equal just not the as much as a NA, blower or nitrous car, right? Man i sure wish reid or russ would take a stab at this to clear it up or make it cloudier, haha.

I couldn't agree more. :D

And just to make clear, I am only on forums to learn things and thus transfer FACTUAL knowledge if needed. I would never give anyone info that I didnt personally resarch to the hilt to get at least a VERY educated answer to certain questions.

I have much enjoyed our discussion, and am glad we see each others points. :D

[Jetblack]

I have much enjoyed our discussion, and am glad we see each others points. :D

Except it's a thread about gears. :D

LOL!!

And I'm trying to figure out what made that shape on your Ford carpet. It looks like a giant snake slithered across it and left a track of it's rattles.

[x NOODLES x]

HEY SHUT UP!!!

The rug was dirty and my PS skills suck! lol!!

Many props to you!! The first to notice!! Jackass. :D

[ntrcptr90]

I couldn't agree more. :D

And just to make clear, I am only on forums to learn things and thus transfer FACTUAL knowledge if needed. I would never give anyone info that I didnt personally resarch to the hilt to get at least a VERY educated answer to certain questions.

I have much enjoyed our discussion, and am glad we see each others points. :D
We are all here to learn, completely agree, constantly do myself as well. Back to gears, glad you enjoy them "black". Hopefully see some of you other mustang guys out at the track its been 5 years since i've raced out there.

[Jetblack]

We are all here to learn, completely agree, constantly do myself as well. Back to gears, glad you enjoy them "black". Hopefully see some of you other mustang guys out at the track its been 5 years since i've raced out there.

Hell yeah. I've been on here for 2.5 years and I don't think I've ever met you.

I met 89/00/02TA, like the second day out, bowtiy (I think), Eric, RyFly05, SOMTA, Thumpn, a1320honda, Northwest Outlaw and his pit crew (son), Reid, QWIKRNU, JJ, SRTBrian, Phil and MaRbLe, elsewhere. Plenty more.

Getcherass out there, this summer, man. And if you see my car, come say hi. I'd like to meet Gregc someday, as well. I hear he's hilarious.

At the track, everybody's great. We can disagree all we want, online, but once the lights go green, the whole world can watch to see who's right. And may people will leave their cars to go videotape the results. One person either eats his words and takes it like a man/woman or gets proven right. And then there is no bitching, because the timeslip is undeniable :) Thou shalt bow to the righteous timeslip. It's like boasting in the weight room. Nto a good place to tell even the tiniest fib because there will be someone there to say "I'd like to see that..."

And it had better be showtime.